Former Leinster coach Matt Williams joined OTB AM to talk about the importance of the Leinster and Munster rivalry for Irish rugby.

“This is an incredible rivalry,” Williams said.

“What I see is a hatred of losing, both sides just detest the feeling of losing to the other and the humility and the humble pie you’ve got to quaff down when that occurs.

“For the best part of a decade it has been Munster that have been doing the humble pie-eating, and that’s just sticking with them so bad.”

The Australian, who coached Leinster from 2000-2003 spoke about Munster’s perceived dominance at the time.

“It is a rivalry because even why I was there 20 years ago, we played Munster five times in my time there and we only lost once,” he said.

“When I was up at Ulster, we played Munster four times and we lost once.

“So, this concept of a Munster team who are winning European cups and were always dominating Irish rugby doesn’t really hold water.”

Williams thinks that it is the success of other teams on the island that drives provinces to be better and beat the top team.

“That hatred that Munster had of being beaten, if you speak to Ronan O’Gara back 20 years ago in the first Celtic League, he said that drove so much of that determination,” William said.

“They were never going to feel that again.

“What it did to Leinster is it gave them the ability to say, ‘these are the European champions and we can take these guys on’.

“The same thing with Ulster when they went on to make the European Cup final, although they got walloped in it.

“In front of all that, even though Leinster and Ulster were behind Munster and they weren’t seen as being equal to them, that drove Munster on.”

Williams has seen this as the reason that Leinster is so dominant today, and that it will drive Munster, Ulster and Connacht to all step up their games.

“Even though Munster, Ulster the other provinces seem to be behind them, that’s still driving them on,” he said.

“Munster keep stepping up, Ulster keep stepping up and Connacht step up. Connacht won a competition a few years ago, and that has driven Leinster to step up again.”

Shane Daly of Munster in action against Rónan Kelleher of Leinster during the Guinness PRO14 Round 14 match between Leinster and Munster at the Aviva Stadium in Dublin. Photo by Stephen McCarthy/Sportsfile

Williams has seen one difference that sets Leo Cullen’s team apart at present.

“The amazing thing about what it’s done to Leinster is the creation of an academy system and a process where [they] are winning Europe with 20 of their 23 coming from their academy system,” he said.

“That is great for Irish rugby, because if you look at Munster there are two or three Leinster guys in it.

“You look up north in Ulster, there’s three or four Leinster guys in it, in Galway it’s the same sort of thing.

“What the other provinces have got to do now is they’ve got to come back to the school system, put into the schools, drive the academies, because that’s what Leinster are doing.”

The growth of academies in all of the province is the next step for Irish rugby on the global stage, according to Williams.

“If we can start getting to the point where each of the provinces has 20 homegrown boys in their 23, that’s been a huge step forward,” he said.

“What that means to the national coach is [they] have got all these guys that can step forward.

“So, you don’t have to be beaten in order to drive the competition in the country.”

Heated rivalry breeds competition

Williams acknowledged that the intensity of the rivalry can get the better of players and coaches at the time, but said that that intensity makes the friendship late even better.

“Even though there was rivalry that bordered on fanaticism and obsession, and we said things and did things we probably all regret, now that’s turned to respect and friendship,” he said.

“We talk about what it was, what that drove, and what it did, and it is a really nice conversation and one that’s still valid today.

“Because when these guys retire, [when Johnny] Sexton retires and let’s say Peter O’Mahony retires, it’ll be really interesting for them when they can speak honestly about what [the rivalry] does.

“The current players can’t speak honestly about what that rivalry really is.”

22 August 2020; Garry Ringrose of Leinster and Chris Farrell of Munster following the Guinness PRO14 Round 14 match between Leinster and Munster at the Aviva Stadium in Dublin. Photo by Ramsey Cardy/Sportsfile

Historically, the rivalry between the provinces has seen some very heated altercations, but Williams thinks that it is the healthiest way to encourage competition.

“A lot of the time I hear the boys from the past speaking and I’m going, ‘you’re just putting a bit of sugar on top of that.

“You really hated us, and we really hated you, and we said things that were bad, and you did things that were bad,’ but it was great.

“It occasionally got a little out of hand, but it just drove performance and it drove training.

“It certainly put together the last couple of [successful years with Ireland] and when you have a coach like Joe Schmidt at the top, I think it is a really healthy thing.”

If Leinster continue their winning trend against Munster, Williams thinks that it will be up to the men in red to come back and step up their game.

“If Leinster keep winning and they keep getting pushed forwards, that’s life,” he said.

“Munster have got to step up and do it, and the beauty of that is you can’t talk your way into it, you’ve got to do it.

“Munster can’t go and say Ronan O’Gara, yeah Paul O’Connell, they were brilliant, they were.

“They have to go now and show what’s this era going to do.”

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